Stop rolling, start tapping!
Ever been really excited about something, and then your friend says:
“Isn’t that haram?”
Yeah it can be a real downer. I was telling my friend about our new found love for Monopoly and the epic games that had been taking place downtown Toronto, when he quoted a pretty solid hadith about the use of dice. It goes like this:
“He who plays with dice will be deemed as a person thrusting his hands in pig’s blood.” (Reported by Muslim on the authority of Buraydah)
Yeah, I know all you super chilled out, Islam is love, peace and goodwill people are going “How extreeeeme! Dude, this is not what our deen is about!” However, the least we can do is to read the hadith a couple of times, let it sink in and get some scholarly opinions about it. OR, we can just go invent a Random Number Generator (RNG). This is one of the best things about the Shariah, it forces you to be creative and think outside the box. The RNC will not just be a bareboned LED Digital Clock (like some of you NON-creative people would have come with), it will actually be embedded in the middle of the boardgame (as shown in the picture). All you have to do is tap the interface and it will come up with a random number for you – Genius eh!
Anyone wishing to contribute to the development of this product, comment below with improvements and additions. It’s going to make millions!
Happy rolling, umm… tapping!
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17 Responses
“Ever been really excited about something, and then your friend says: “Isn’t that haram?””
Yes! soo many times..recently relating to bungee jumping and skydiving re: haram to put personal self in danger for the sake of pleasure
The RNC sounds cool. I like how it’s integrated right into the board game, makes it a lot sleeker. It seems like replacing one form over another though, without a change in the substance. In principle, both devices are designed to generate a random number from 1-6, each with a probability of 1/6.
I’m not sure if innovation designed to provide alternatives to a prohibition can happen without understanding the rationale behind that prohibition …cause otherwise we run the risk of inventing something based on the same principles.
Perhaps providing more context to the hadith specifically relating to what incident triggered that statement, what the dice were used for, etc would help?
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majid Reply:
2.18.2010
Re: In principle, both devices are designed to generate a random number from 1-6, each with a probability of 1/6.
You are absolutely right Fezzik! Can’t believe I missed that in my excitement. However… I did have a very, very interesting discussion with a friend who suggested a twist that might eliminate the randomness of the device. Look out for that idea in the comments soon!
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majid Reply:
2.18.2010
insha’Allah
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Muhammad Abduhu Reply:
3.6.2010
What is this idea that you’re talking about?
Aatif Reply:
2.24.2010
Fezzik++
When I read this idea, I thought it was a joke (still kinda think it is). Pretty much the same reasons stated in Fezzik’s reply.
If anything, the concept of “dice” is still there, but the product would require more materials, consuming more of the earth (especially if battery powered which doesn’t have a solid method to recycle), so would it be more haram? Then again, it would be creating more demographically appropriate (ie. electronic manufacturing) jobs.
I would just echo Fezzik’s comment again. Best to figure out more context behind the hadith (ie. maybe it’s only haram in forms of gambling).
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I think it should be a device that works for all kinds of games such as the ones that require timers. So if you can add a timer to it, it will add value.
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As Fezzik said, seems to be achieving the exact same result as a dice …. interested to hear how the randomness (luck) can be removed?
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Just the other day we were playing a game of Risk and this same topic game up!
Regarding the ruling on playing with dice, I think the islam-qa article on backgammon is more clear on the matter:
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/95409
On the issue of randomness:
* If the RNG is algorithm based, it is certainly not actually random – it just appears to be. In which case regardless of how the ahadith are interpreted it is OK to use.
* If the RNG’s randomness is based on some physical phenomenon then the issue seems to be less clear.
An Idea:
I think this would make a really good iphone application! You could have it work for all sorts of games, no matter how many dice are needed (5 in Risk, for example). You could even add support for timers and other game related mechanisms. In this case the randomness would be algorithm based and you would have the flexibility of a software platform.
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fezzik Reply:
3.5.2010
hmm that’s an interesting point but I can’t come to terms with the fact that something that is “close to being random”, i.e. an RNG determined by an algorithm would be permissible but another that has its randomness based on natural phenomenon would be impermissible. You could argue that natural phenomenon too follow an algorithm (laws of physics), even though we may not have been able to convert it into code. The former just seems like avoiding the same result by finding a loophole. Allah knows best.
Some thing that I found useful: http://www.islam4all.com/chap-10i.htm#c7
–> shows the distinction between gambling and drawing lots. Gambling is impermissible, drawing lots is, even though both have the random element in it. I think we need to put more thought into what is being prohibited when “games of chance” are being prohibited.
$0.02…Allah knows best.
[Reply to this Comment]
Kashif Umer Reply:
3.5.2010
After I looked at this post again, I realized that maybe I’m thinking too literally (maybe we all are). So, I decided to ask the Imam of Waterloo Masjid about the ahahdith.
He told me not to focus on the elements of the game, but rather the games themselves. There is ample evidence that randomness is not haram, so how can it be the die in and of itself? He explained that the problem stems from what Abdelrahman mentioned below, wasting time. In this case the dice are used in a game that wastes time and so we should not ‘play’ with them. He interprets this as avoiding the games themselves. If you were to use a die to determine the battering order of a 6 person team, he said this would be acceptable.
This is just one opinion on the matter and Allah (swt) knows best.
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AbdelRahman Elsayed Morsey Reply:
4.27.2010
Jazak Allahu khairan for asking the Imam of Waterloo Masjid for this. It makes so much sense what he’s saying.
Creative way to think out of the box, however you need to take this idea through a scholar before implementing it. What makes you so sure that using RNG isn’t just a different way of committing the same haram? Could the concept of wasting time with random numbers coming from dice BE the haram (not a shape of a die in and of itself)? Since USING dice in a game like backgammon is makes it haram, how are you sure that just using an RNG instead of dice in backgammon/risk could not fall under the same category of haram?
I am not saying it is haram. I just want these questions to be answers so that efforts not go to waste by going with the concept and get all excited about it then it turns out scholars rejected it.
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AbdelRahman Elsayed Morsey Reply:
3.2.2010
And sorry guys for my ridiculous grammar.
is what* makes it haram
to be answered*
efforts are* not gone* to waste
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Okay so I will cut the suspense and share with you an idea a Sister had. I wanted her to comment here herself, but she is busy these days so she asked me to go ahead and share it.
If in fact, this hadith refers to the “randomness” of the object as opposed to the game being played or gambling aspect, the way randomness can be removed is by bringing a Start-Stop function into the device. This is equivalent to a silly game played by people where you try to Start and Stop a stopwatch closes to zero. The reason this can work is because there is actual skill involved. So for example, suppose you are playing Monopoly and you badly need a 4 to land on a particular property, your skill with being able to stop the Random Number Generator as it zooms through the number 4 will play a huge part in your outcome. Of course it wouldn’t be called a Random Number Generator then.
Is it just me or does that sound like an awesome and innovative solution? Also we need new name suggestions for the device!
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Creative way to think out of the box, however you need to take this idea through a scholar before implementing it. What makes you so sure that using RNG isn’t just a different way of committing the same haram? Could the concept of wasting time with random numbers coming from dice BE the haram (not a shape of a die in and of itself)? Since USING dice in a game like backgammon is makes it haram, how are you sure that just using an RNG instead of dice in backgammon/risk could not fall under the same category of haram?
I am not saying it is haram. I just want these questions to be answers so that efforts not go to waste by going with the concept and get all excited about it then it turns out scholars rejected it.
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ok, i think people (notice i am not saying muslims…) here are missing the point… it seems you all want to ignore the spirit of the hadith. similar to what the jews did with their scriptures…
shaloam
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monopoly and other board games are a way to psychologically program a person to think a certain way… monopoly for instance programs the sub-concious mind to exploit everyone just to make a $… pretty sick and dispicable… something that ALL the Messengers of Allah and Muhammad came to eliminate. you people make me cry… where are the real muslim men, the true ones who do business to help others and earn their places in heaven? how can u be so dense not to realize what is happening here…
SELFLESS, not Selfish look it up in the dictionary
i think i will marry a non-muslim since all the “muslim men” seem to be less than even the non-muslim…
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